Re: =Re:_A_question_about conversion_from_NIEL-DEP to NIEL from Francesco Cerutti on 2011-08-19 (fluka discuss archive)

From: Francesco Cerutti <Francesco.Cerutti_at_cern.ch>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 01:46:43 +0200

Dear Turgay,

before coming back to your exercise, I think it is worth clarifying that
of course your use of FLUKA makes no sense at all: in the real life one
needs NIEL to calculate NIEL-DEP, or more generally stopping power to
calculate energy deposition, and not viceversa. In order to get a stopping
power value (as well as its quite particular NIEL version), it's enough to
look into literature, at a textbook or a public tabulation (as apparently
you did), there is no need to run FLUKA. Stopping power is a fundamental
ingredient that, together with many others acting at the same time
(e.g. Multiple Coulomb scattering, nuclear reations...), defines through
a combined effect the value of an observable like energy deposition. FLUKA
(as any similar Monte Carlo code) aims at the calculation of such a
complex interplay, which is what takes place in nature, is measured, and
is quite hard to get through a single formula (like the Bethe-Bloch one)
on a piece of paper.
So your investigation is purely academic, sounding like "let's check if
one of the basic ingredient of FLUKA is correct". Well, let's go.

> 2. ''1MeV protons on Al stop in
> 15 micron''. How should I use this information in my calculation?

You could profit from this message (not exactly from the number 15) at
least for two purposes: i. to be aware that a target thickness of
20micron, 1cm, or 1m, makes no difference; ii. to take into account that
in your implementation you are not just dealing with 1MeV protons in Al,
but with protons that on the target front face have 1MeV, and 15micron
after are at rest, meaning that the scored NIEL-DEP is due to protons
spanning the interval between 1MeV and zero. Since you want to extract the
theoretical value of NIEL for 1MeV protons (and NIEL is not at all
constant as a function of energy), you must consider, as I already wrote,
only the NIEL-DEP fraction due to protons with an energy very close to
1MeV (I used the 990keV-1MeV interval) and divide by the *respective*
tracklength. Now, the mentioned fraction, in order to be artificially
disentangled, requires - I'm sorry - the comscw user routine, where you
say: "score NIEL-DEP only if the proton kinetic energy lies in a given
interval".
I attach for your convenience my input and comscw.
You will get the NIEL-DEP value to be used, in the fourth USRBIN (being
the third referred to 900keV-1MeV protons and the first two to all protons
and all particles - obviously there is no other particle but protons -).
The result will be ~3.1e-9 GeV.
On the other hand, you should take the tracklength of 990keV-1MeV protons,
that you will find already printed in the first non-zero bin of the
cumulative flux inside the USRTRACK *_sum.lis summary file. Something like
2.13e-5 cm.
Then (3.1e-6[MeV]/2.13e-5[cm])/2.7[g/cm3]=0.054[MeVcm2/g], and the game is
over. (This by the way is the *restricted* NIEL).

Ciao

Francesco

**************************************************
Francesco Cerutti
CERN-EN/STI
CH-1211 Geneva 23
Switzerland
tel. ++41 22 7678962
fax ++41 22 7668854

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011, turgay hhhhhhhhh wrote:

> --_41284763-46a9-4f7c-b017-55af13c9c2ee_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Francesco,
>
>
>
> thanks to your help.
>
>
>
> I tried your recommendations.
>
>
>
> I added a FLUKAFIX card in my .inp
> file.
>
>
>
> Result of USRBIN (NIEL-DEP) score =
> 5.5935E-7 GeV/cm3/pr
>
>
>
> Result of USRTRACK score =
> 1.4497504E-3 cm/pr
>
>
>
> Density of Al = 2.6989 g/cm3
>
>
>
> NIEL=NIEL-DEP/Track*Density
>
>
>
> NIEL=1.429564 E-4
>
>
>
>
>
> 1. I'm not familiar with user
> routines.
> Must I use COMSCW routine?
>
> Should I use 1.602E-7 multiplier
> (Manual, pp:251, Note:5) instead of COMSCW?
> If answer: Yes
>
>
>
>
> NIEL=1.429564/1.602=0.89226376
>
>
>
> 2. ''1MeV protons on Al stop in
> 15 micron''. How should I use this information in my calculation?
>
>
>
> Finally if I use 15 micron;
>
>
>
> NIEL=0.89226376/15=0.0595
>
>
>
> I attached my input files.
>
> Thanks to your advances.
>
>
>
> Best regards.
>
> --_41284763-46a9-4f7c-b017-55af13c9c2ee_
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
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> </head>
> <body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }</style>
>
> Dear Francesco,
> 
> 
> thanks to your help.
> 
> 
> I tried your recommendations.
> 
> 
> I added a FLUKAFIX card in my .inp
> file.
> 
> 
> Result of USRBIN (NIEL-DEP) score =
> 5.5935E-7 GeV/cm3/pr
> 
> 
> Result of USRTRACK score =
> 1.4497504E-3 cm/pr
> 
> 
> Density of Al = 2.6989 g/cm3
> 
> 
> NIEL=NIEL-DEP/Track*Density
> 
> 
> NIEL=1.429564 E-4
> 
> 
> 
>
> 1. I'm not familiar with user
> routines.
> Must I use COMSCW routine?
> 
> Should I use 1.602E-7 multiplier
> (Manual, pp:251, Note:5) instead of COMSCW? If answer: Yes 
> 
> 
> NIEL=1.429564/1.602=0.89226376
> 
> 
> 2. ''1MeV protons on Al stop in
> 15 micron''. How should I use this information in my calculation?
> 
> 
> Finally if I use 15 micron;
> 
> 
> NIEL=0.89226376/15=0.0595
> 
> 
> I attached my input files.
> Thanks to your advances.
> 
> 
> Best regards.
> </div></body>
> </html>
> --_41284763-46a9-4f7c-b017-55af13c9c2ee_--
>
>
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--8323328-1723417401-1313711203=:26739--
Received on Fri Aug 19 2011 - 09:18:57 CEST

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