Re: [fluka-discuss]: about self-shielding

From: <alfredo.ferrari_at_mi.infn.it>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 15:41:21 +0200

Dear Vladimir

You have to use the pointwise cross sections as you were doing. The
self-shielding correction will then be computed automatically.

The misunderstanding is that

  W natural and W natural SelfShielded

are for GROUPWISE cross sections, there are no separate materials,
self-shielded and not self-shielded for pointwise, because the "correct"
self-shielding will automatically come out runtime using them, for both
resolved resonances and unresolved ones.

So forget the existence of two different W for the groupwise corss
sections, they are not used if you select pointwise and the correct
selfshielding will come out.

   Ciao
   Alfredo
> Dear Alfredo,
>    thank you for the answer.... BUT I cannot fully understand it.
>
>    Let me explain  my understanding for now about self-shielding problem:
>
>    1) in the input cards :  W5.inp   and   W5sh.inp
>                    I use LOW-PWXS cards,  and in both cases
>                     in the FLUKA output I see lines :
>        ............
>  *** Pointwise cross sections activated for Xsec mat. #    7 TUNGSTEN  
> ***
>  *** corresponding to the Fluka mat. #   23 TUNGSTEN ***
>  *** decomposed into #    5 isotopes as following***
>
>        Isotope #  1 id #  17 fraction: 0.3064
>        activated from  1.00000E-14 GeV to  2.00000E-02 GeV, T = 296.00 K
>        read from file: 741840-endfb8r0-296.pwx
>
>        Isotope #  2 id #  18 fraction: 0.2843
>        activated from  1.00000E-14 GeV to  2.00000E-02 GeV, T = 296.00 K
>        read from file: 741860-endfb8r0-296.pwx
>
>        Isotope #  3 id #  19 fraction: 0.2650
>        activated from  1.00000E-14 GeV to  2.00000E-02 GeV, T = 296.00 K
>        read from file: 741820-endfb8r0-296.pwx
>
>        Isotope #  4 id #  20 fraction: 0.1431
>        activated from  1.00000E-14 GeV to  2.00000E-02 GeV, T = 296.00 K
>        read from file: 741830-endfb8r0-296.pwx
>
>        Isotope #  5 id #  21 fraction: 0.0012
>        activated from  1.00000E-14 GeV to  2.00000E-02 GeV, T = 296.00 K
>        read from file: 741800-endfb8r0-296.pwx
>         -------------------
>
>          i.e. why I got the same results for both cases.
>               and it means that FLUKA uses point-wise cross sections ...
>
>   2) now in the manual I see lines :
>      .....
>      10.5.1 Resonances and self-shielding with pointwise cross sections
>
>      Resolved resonances are obviously fully described in the pointwise
>      cross sections, properly broadened at the given temperature.
>      In the resolved resonance energy range self-shielding is
>      automatically accounted for.
>      ...........................
>
>      so,  I see, that using  LOW-PWXS library all resonances in
>          my E-region will be self-shielded corrected
>          i.e why I got the same results for 2 input cards
>
>
>   3) my understanding was:
>       a) I see   2    W74  materials in the manual :       p.360
>            W natural   and  W natural SelfShielded
>          and my thought was - compare these 2 materials
>           and I get self-shielding correction...
>
>       b) now, if I got   your answer
>          I have to compare 2 variants :
>        - with LOW-PWXS  card
>        - and with commented this card, i.e with group method, no
> point-wise
>              and remove MAT definition for self-shielded material
>
>          then I will get self-shielding correction
>
>          ... otherwise it means that FLUKA cannot give this correction ?
>
>       is it correct ?
>
>  -------------------------
>
>  thank you
>  Vladimir
>
>
>
> On 04.10.2023 16:53, alfredo.ferrari_at_mi.infn.it wrote:
>> Dear Vladimir
>>
>> I assume you are using the group neutron cross section for W. If this is
>> the case, only infinitely diluted (-> no self-shielding) or fully
>> self-shielded cross sections are available (suitable for thick
>> materials),
>> and which one is used is left to the user choice through the LOW-MAT
>> card.
>>
>> Viceversa, using pointwise cross sections (see the LOW-PWXS card), you
>> can
>> get whichever degree of self-shielding adapted to your problem (at the
>> price of some extra CPU time). Please try with pointwise cross sections
>> and let us know if it works as it should for you.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Alfredo
>>
>>>  Dear experts,
>>>  I am going to analyse W resonances using flow of neutrons
>>>  after Wnat foil : 0.2 mm width.
>>>  I want to define self-shielding corrections for this foil,
>>>  using FLUKA.
>>>
>>>  For this I do small experiment:
>>>  I analyze 2 W resonances for E-region : 2-9 eV (see
>>> fig-E-3-9-sigma.png)
>>>                    -------------------
>>>  I introduce E bins with E-step = 0.010 eV
>>>  and for each Ebin I use rndm points with K= 1000 entries.
>>>  Each neutron starts from X=0,
>>>  Wnat foil is disposed at X=11 m
>>>  N counter is disposed at X= 13 m (to be close to some experiments
>>> ...)
>>>
>>>  Each E-point is translated into T-points according to the
>>> expression:
>>>
>>>       T= 72.29 * L / sqrt(E),     (mks, m, eV)
>>>
>>>  replace air by VACUUM.
>>>  FLUKA suggests 2 variants of Wnat : ordinary  and self-shielded, 300
>>> K,
>>>
>>>  So, I run 2 jobs (2 cases) :
>>>         a) no shield,             see W5.inp
>>>                                                ------
>>>         b) WITH self-shielded W :     W5sh.inp
>>>                                                      ---------
>>>   and use 5 cycles.
>>>
>>>  RESULTS
>>>  ========
>>>
>>>  1) FLUKA *.out files does not show any comments about self-shielded
>>> mat.
>>>        see fig-FLUKA-T.png  ,.... comparing 2 cases ===> no any
>>> differences
>>>                ---------------
>>>
>>>     it looks like that FLUKA uses the same input data for both cases
>>>     ..... or I missed something in self-shielding definition ?
>>>
>>>  2) I fill also my own array for E, T data using C4 counter
>>>
>>>     look at the entries for E- T- distributions:
>>>             fig-my-E-entry.png ,  fig-my-T-entry.png
>>>                      ------------------    ------------------
>>>
>>>     ...there is no any difference for these 2 cases... why ?
>>>
>>>  3) Q: is it possible to define self-shielding resonance correction
>>>         using FLUKA ?
>>>
>>>  4) Q: ..or I should use the expression for capture flow after the
>>> foil:
>>> ?
>>>
>>>
>>>           Ycap = ( 1 -exp(-n*d*SIGtot) ) * SIGcap/ SIGtot
>>>
>>>     where expression in brackets can be treated as self-shielding
>>> correction,
>>>
>>>      SIGtot - total cross section
>>>      SIGcap - capture cross section
>>>      n - atoms density, according to FLUKA it is equal to
>>>                6.3222E-02  ( at/(cm barn) )
>>>      d = 0.02 cm
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>>
>>>  thank you,
>>>  sorry for the long e-mail
>>>
>>>  Vladimir
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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Received on Thu Oct 05 2023 - 17:34:00 CEST

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